This process is reminding me of a problem I used to have back when I was hip-deep in scripting languages and SQL queries, though: after I spend a really long time trying to conceptualize things using computer language, I find myself looking at the non-computer world and trying to apply computer languages and logic statements to it. For example, I keep a whiteboard next to my computer desk to help me keep track of various things, and when I look at the whiteboard after working a long time on programming stuff, I don't see adding and subtracting things from the whiteboard as a simple matter of writing on and erasing it, but as a computerized process of adding and subtracting text from a file. Not only do I see things and processes I'm familiar with in this way, but I also try to find improvements in other things by thinking of them like computer programmes, even if doing so isn't particularly practical.

For a long time now I've heard of people who, in attempting to learn a foreign language, immerse themselves so deep in the language to the point where they naturally, without any conscious thought, begin to think and even dream in the language they're learning. I'm wondering if what I experience after working with computer programming languages might be a similar phenomenon. I never learned enough Japanese in the day to really be able to "think" in Japanese, but then again my knowledge of computer programming has always been somewhat limited by the fact that I've been mostly self-taught in that regard and never took any programming classes beyond simple stuff on Apple IIs back when I was a kid. Perhaps this is a sign of my left brain trying to assert dominance over my thinking, attempting to place logical constraints on a highly illogical world.

Comment by  joepet at 3/5/07 20:50:
I feel compelled to respond, seeing as I probably the only one reading with extensive experience studying both programming and Japanese.

I definitely do dream and think in Japanese from time to time, but of course I have been studying Japanese since 1992, and living in Japan since 1996, so the language is an all-encompassing part of my life. I have never had the experience of "dreaming" in HTML, or any other computer language. But I remember a time when I was obsessed with Tetris and played for many hours at a time, when I would have strange Tetris dreams, and even in my waking hours unconsciously think of putting things together.

I think for the phenomenon to take place requires at least one of two conditions: a simple, repetitive task done over and over, or a language where person to person communication is possible. Programming languages are much more complex than Tetris, but people just do not communicate with each other using SQL and style sheets. So I think that it is unlikely that you will starting thinking and dreaming in PHP any time soon.

 

Comment by  Sean at 3/5/07 21:17:
The phenomenon you describe regarding Tetris actually has a name: the "Tetris effect." It's actually quite a common phenomenon among people who play puzzle and other relatively simple video games. (It definitely happens with the dance games I play.)

I think things may be different for me just because I'm always analyzing how things work and trying to figure out how something can be better. As much as I cultivate my right-brain skills, I have very highly-developed analytical skills (as evidenced by how I've destroyed nearly every standardized math test I've encountered), which may mean that it's easier for me to think about real-world items in computing terms.

 

Comment by  Kevin at 7/5/07 03:11:
I've recently had to take courses in HTML, Java, PHP, and a handful of other scripting languages and it has been a struggle trying to grasp and remember the basic concepts. Do you think that studying a foreign language helped, or would help prepare a person better for learning a scripting language?

 

Comment by  joepet at 7/5/07 17:52:
I think that the only thing in common with a foreign language and a scripting language is that we use the word "language" to describe both of them. HTML and PHP cannot be used by two humans to communicate with each other. When a programming lnguage can be used as a communication language, then that will be the day when artificial intelligence takes a quantum leap forward.

 

Comment by  Sean at 7/5/07 19:44:
Joe: You'd be surprised at how much Internet lingo is already entering mainstream vocabulary, at least among the younger generations. In addition to the well-known neologisms like "to Google," chat-room acronyms like LOL and STFU (and even smiley formations like "colon-D") have already entered young people's speech. I don't think it would necessarily be that much of a stretch to see a day where someone goes "bold THIS IS SERIOUS end bold" in speech, at least in an ironic subtext.

Kevin: I think that learning foreign languages can help with learning computer languages, but I'm not so sure it would work the other way around. The thing about computer languages is that they tend to be highly regular and predictable, whereas foreign languages seem to be full of all kinds of irregularities that it becomes a chore to keep track of them all. (Just think how much of a pain it must be for a non-native English speaker to learn all our irregular plurals for things like sheep, oxen, geese etc. English speakers go through similar problems learning the irregularities of other languages.)

 

Comment by  joepet at 7/5/07 21:28:
Words do not a language make. You need a grammatical subtext to convey complex thoughts and instructions, which cannot be done simply by using "bold" (which 21st century web programmers would not use anyway, when CSS is now widely available), "LOL", and "STFU" (and what does John Cena have to do with what we are talking about anyway?)

While constructs from scripting languages could be used to enhance an existing language, they are insufficient to form a complete language in and of itself.

 

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